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High Card Carl's avatar

Your first marriage may be annul-able, many priests would say it is:

1. Affair unrepentant prior to marriage likely means she couldn’t enter into a marriage really. Intent at altar almost definitely not there

2. If not a Catholic marriage, a lot more gray area whether it was actually a sacrament and clear intentions

3. If not a Catholic wedding, then unlikely you had divorce as off the table and so might not be a valid marriage too

I would talk openly with a priest. Definitely some will agree.

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Ray Alex Williams's avatar

I just found out my ex-wife was baptized Catholic. Does that mean it would be considered invalid because we were married outside the Catholic Church in a secular ceremony?

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Justin Alan Kolodziej Sr.'s avatar

Yeah, I think that is also a cause for nullity and actually one of the simpler ones. Definitely bring that up with your pastor.

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Bridget's avatar

Sometimes there is an open-and-shut case, and God just wants to accompany us through the dark valley of "am I still willing to do this even if it means the loss of everything that currently seems to make life worth living" before letting us know that we will not really be losing everything.

Other times we really do lose those things, but it is in the process of God letting us know that there is something else that makes life worth living that, if we had known about it (but we didn't know and had to make a blind leap), we would have gladly surrendered those other things for it... piled them onto firewood and set it all on fire, figuratively.

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TD's avatar

Yes. It's called a defect of form annulment.

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Kristen West McGuire's avatar

Yes. Every Diocese has a tribunal that handles these matters. You access the tribunal by going to your priest. Or whoever he designates at the Parish level to handle these annulment questions- if your first wife was baptized as a Catholic and then married in a ceremony outside the Catholic Church, you don’t even have to get an annulment. It’s called a lack of form and it’s very easy to process.

Unless you are actively shacking up with a third lady, none of this should get in the way of you becoming a Catholic.

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Sarah A Labriola's avatar

Hi there! I’m a convert who had my first marriage annulled, as did my now-husband whom I had the joy of marrying in the Church, and I now work as a procurator for our Diocesan Tribunal. As your wise professor said, he is not a canon lawyer and I would not despair yet! The Tribunal is compassionate and wants to help you discern God’s will!

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Dan F's avatar

Just to echo this, based on my understanding of the law, 1 is likely your biggest thing. Persistently having affairs seems likely evidence for a defect of intent in regards to exclusivity, which would render the marriage invalid. I would definitely talk to a priest and also the diocesan tribunal about this.

God be with you in these last weeks before Easter!

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Ray Alex Williams's avatar

I guess my question is what possible evidence could I gather to show she was unrepentant especially when it was so long ago, lives in another state, and I’d have no clue how to get in touch with her, not to mention I doubt she’d even respond to any inquiry.

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Margotte X's avatar

My first husband, when sent annulment papers, wrote "666 Son of the Devil" on it and mailed it back. I think this helped. Don't give up.

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High Card Carl's avatar

1. Were you both validly baptized Christians?

2. Was it a Catholic wedding?

3. Was there openness to having kids?

4. Did you guys understand divorce to be an option?

Not sure you need her involved depending on answers here

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Ray Alex Williams's avatar

I was baptized. Not sure about her. I’d assume yes. Not a Catholic wedding. Yes, there was openness to kids. I can’t recall if we ever thought divorce was on the table or not. Probably yes given we were both secular atheists.

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High Card Carl's avatar

Got it. I would talk to a priest

The distinction between marriage as a sacrament and natural marriages was one I struggled with intellectually for a long time

If it helps from an exegesis point of view, Peter and Paul’s letters allow for divorce during conversions and the old covenant allowed for divorce. As a Bible believing Christian even apart from dogma, your case is pretty easy and likely not even a marriage that requires an annulment.

I could be wrong here. Very interested in what a priest / bishop has to say

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Jared Dembrun's avatar

A formal declaration of nullity is still required by the Church, since we presume marriages valid.

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Ray Alex Williams's avatar

Yes, I’m planning on talking to a priest about it. But my OCIA professor is very knowledgeable. But he did say Canon law was not his specialty.

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High Card Carl's avatar

My guess is that this is a common enough circumstance that nearly every acting priest has run into it and knows the take

Two atheists get secular married in a normal natural marriage but without God involved and with some amount of baptism before hand

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John Gillen's avatar

Don’t know if my advice is worthwhile but I’ve been married to one woman for 52 years. She’s the only one I’ve ever had sex with and we were both virgins on our wedding night. I have lived in a sexless and mostly affection less state for the last 25 years, not my choosing. She has become a none Catholic for the last five years and no longer goes to mass. This is primarily do to an attachment to our daughter. If I were not a Catholic Christian I would have left more than twenty years ago. I still love her but greatly miss the woman that used to be my wife. It is a pleasant roommate arrangement. Jesus said that following his path would not be without trials, some can be difficult but the goal remains the same. Our time here is limited, the other side is forever. I just keep going, praying for a change in the here and now.

I’m not a canon lawyer but your case for both marriages and even your mental state for both seem to indicate that neither were valid. I would keep trying but know that if it’s not to be that you can survive in a celebrate state although the non-affectionate state is actually worse.

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Ray Alex Williams's avatar

Thank you for sharing. That must be difficult but I admire your conviction. God bless 🙏

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Benjamin John's avatar

To my knowledge, a baptized Catholic cannot validly contract a marriage outside the Church. If your first ‘wife’ didn’t have a dispensation from her bishop, I would think that would be invalid. But either way, trust the Lord. Even when things seem difficult, He showed us that God reveals Himself most fully in the midst of our suffering. I highly recommend reading Dr. Matthew Levering’s book, “The Indissolubility of Marriage: Amoris Laetitia in Context” for more on this.

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Áine's avatar

It is definitely a cross to bear Ray although in a recent confession my priest and I identified my cross and he exclaimed that it was firstly great to understand it as a cross and to be so grateful both for this understanding and the cross. The cross has to be seen in divine not human terms and united with Jesus’ suffering to truly aid our conversion and our salvation. Truly it has been lighter since that conversation!

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Ray Alex Williams's avatar

That is a helpful perspective. Thank you for sharing. God bless 🙏

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Rachel's avatar

Hi, I’m not a Catholic, I’m Protestant, but I love this perspective on the cross. This blessed me so much today ♥️ There is so much I admire about you Catholics. For all our differences, sometimes you all say things and I think, “Wow, I don’t think a Protestant could have said that better.”

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Jared Dembrun's avatar

As far as I know, a lot of tribunals would consider your first wife's affairs before and shortly after the wedding day as evidence (not necessarily definitive proof) of her not intending to consent to sexual exclusivity.

Also, if you didn't know about her affairs on your wedding day, there is a legitimate question as to whether you were capable of giving real consent. When grave circumstances regarding the betrothed's moral character are concealed from the other spouse, especially information that is likely to change their decision to marry (most people would think it's reasonable to leave a cheating fiancee rather than tie the knot), it's difficult to see how real consent can be given.

All that said, I'm glad you see the truth of our Faith. I'm also a convert, and my conversion was really about learning and living obedience to the True Church. Although there are angles to argue for an annulment of your first marriage, being Catholic requires accepting the possibility that a tribunal may rule that your first marriage is valid.

May I ask if you and your first wife were both baptized at the time of the marriage? If not, you can't have a sacramental marriage, even if it's valid, and there is a possibility of merely valid natural marriages being dissolved by the Holy See, but they will only do it for a grave cause. Just like the annulment process, there are no guarantees there.

Good luck! Remember to fast and pray in order to fight the temptations of the evil one.

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Ray Alex Williams's avatar

I was baptized Protestant and I just learned this morning she was baptized Catholic

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Jared Dembrun's avatar

In that case, assuming you didn't get married by a Catholic priest, you're virtually guaranteed an annulment due to lack of proper canonical form.

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Jacob's avatar

A few thoughts:

- There are many of us Catholics who are not celibate by choice, we would love to get married but it simply hasn't happened for us, and possibly never will. There are also plenty of Catholics who had valid marriages that didn't work out, and therefore must remain celibate. So, if you found out that you had to remain celibate, you wouldn't be as alone in your situation as you seem to think — you'd have plenty of brothers and sisters who were in it with you.

- If you believe that the Church is who she claims to be, and yet you refused to join so that you could get married again, you'd simply be living a lie — it wouldn't make your new marriage more valid. It would be like someone saying "I know the Church condemns abortion, and I do believe that it is the one true Church, but I want to get an abortion so I'm not going to join." It would still be just as wrong to get an abortion if this person didn't join the Church as it would have been of she had joined. The Church doesn't just teach that abortion is wrong for Catholics, but that it is objectively wrong, for everyone. And likewise with the permanence of marriage and the impossibility of divorce — this isn't just a rule for Catholics, it's an objective truth.

- The pursuit of Truth requires sacrifice, always, because Truth is a person, and our relationship with Truth is really a love affair, and love requires self-sacrifice. You're going to have to give plenty of things up on your Christian journey, and if you're truly dedicated you can't say "No, that's too much to give up" because that means you're choosing something else over God — in this case, you'd be making an idol of sex/marriage. We all have idols, but part of following Christ is striving to let go of our idols. It can certainly take time, and it's often very difficult, but we at least need to try.

All of that said, I certainly sympathize and understand why this was such a difficult idea for you to come to terms with. Based on other comments I saw here, it sounds like your first marriage likely wasn't valid anyway, so hopefully you won't have to worry about it. But I do think this situation revealed to you that sex is probably one of your idols, so it would be a good idea to keep that in mind and work on putting it in its proper place, with the help of Christ.

May God continue to bless your journey.

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Ray Alex Williams's avatar

Very well said. Thank you for sharing. You’ve given me much to think and pray about. God bless 🙏❤️

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Nicholas Dighello's avatar

Thank you for the article Ray. Your openness and honesty is remarkable. Just a thought, it is very easy to follow our emotions wherever they choose to lead us be it towards the good or ill. Emotions are also a very fickle thing, leading us towards God one moment, and sin the next. Perhaps if we see something is true with our intellect, if we wish to sit in that truth, we must sometimes disappoint our emotions, and not move in accordance with their whims. This is a very, very, very hard thing to do, and I for one barely have any ability to govern myself in this way, but if we see something is true, we should probably pray to abide in it even if our emotions lead us elsewhere, lest one enters the Church when they really “feel” God, and leave during the first dark night.

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Ray Alex Williams's avatar

Wise words. Thank you 🙏

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Margotte X's avatar

Nope. I haven't even finished the article, but If she was cheating before and after the wedding, she was lying when she said her vows. *Lying*. This is exactly the circumstance of my first marriage, between two baptized individuals in a Protestant church. She was lying. Although the kindly monsignor who gave me my instruction warned me it might take years, my second husband, who converted with me, and I only had to wait 7 months. You had clues. Just tell the annulment board the truth and stop punishing yourself. She probably had no intention of having kids, either. God bless you!

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Sarah Lindamood's avatar

It looks like you've been given some good advice already (in terms of looking into the details of this validity of your first marriage) but I think perhaps there might be some real fruit to be gathered here. If this is a stumbling block for you, it might be worth considering deeply why. Perhaps (and I'm not suggesting this is the case, just the potential) you are being asked to take the desires of intimacy and fatherhood and offer them back to God. They are, after all, gifts that are given and not rights to be demanded. If you were being called to a life of celibacy in this way, how would God provide for you?

In any case, it's obvious that you see this as a struggle in the last moments before you receive your Paschal sacraments and likely a sort of temptation. I'm grateful for your deep honesty and transparency. The Church will be blessed by your experiences and seeing God's mercy in your continued healing. Praying for you for peace.and clarity!

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Ray Alex Williams's avatar

That’s a great perspective. Thank you for sharing 🙏❤️

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Michael Blissenbach's avatar

Celibacy, if that turns out to be how Jesus is calling you to serve Him, is a beautiful, good, and necessary vocation too. I’ve never had sex and have never been married and, as a privately vowed celibate Catholic layman, there’s a lot of good and beautiful and very much needed ways I’m able to serve Christ, Holy Mother Church, and others, especially family members, friends, and those in need, that would be impossible for me to do if I was a married man.

Whatever your vocation turns out to be that Jesus calls you to, brother, you have my support and friendship and you always will.

I hope you see the love and the friendship of all of us on here. The Catholic Church is one big family, and you’re our brother and we love you and we’ll pray for you and support you in any way we can. I hope you find some peace and consolation in that.

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Ray Alex Williams's avatar

Thank you friend 🙏❤️

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Justin Alan Kolodziej Sr.'s avatar

Well I had the same idea. I did kind of think I could get out of it by deciding the Orthodox Churches were really the real ones and they would give me a (first in their eyes) chance at a real marriage, only I couldn't wrap my head around them also giving 3 chances at marriage and couldn't shake the feeling that our bond was sacramental and even if not there wasn't sufficient evidence to do so. Eventually 9 years after our divorce we agreed that she should file for the annulment in her diocese (if you're interested it's the Diocese of Pensacola-Tallahassee and mainly the reason was that all the forms are on the website for anyone to review what goes into a nullity case.) In the process I had to review my whole life and wrestle with some stuff, also she told me something that really changed my opinion.

I really think you should go to your Tribunal anyway and start the discussion with them. One of the canons (the last one in the book) is that salvation of souls comes first. It's kind of a "nothing to lose" situation, though it is possible that a restriction on one or both parties marrying can be imposed. They seem to find a way to grant the majority on annulments now and the process has been simplified and made no-cost in most dioceses.

Also, read Amoris Laetitia -- mercy towards human weakness is the side of the Church that maybe you don't have that much experience with, as your posts are quite intellectual.

Good luck & Godspeed

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Alice B.'s avatar

I liked this article, as I am battling cannabis addiction myself. I'd never thought I'd still be smoking at 32 yo (started when I was 17) but here I am, highly functionning yet not free at all... will try to notice and frame the Addict's voice as the Evil Spirit....

Do you know Saint Patrick's prayer (Breastplate) ? I really like it, here is an excerpt

"Christ with me,

Christ before me,

Christ behind me,

Christ in me,

Christ beneath me,

Christ above me,

Christ on my right,

Christ on my left,

Christ when I lie down,

Christ when I sit down,

Christ when I arise,

Christ in the heart of every man who thinks of me,

Christ in the mouth of everyone who speaks of me,

Christ in every eye that sees me,

Christ in every ear that hears me."

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Diana Compton's avatar

No theologian but your first marriage sounds like it can be annulled.

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Patrick Cavanaugh Koroly's avatar

Just via the Archdiocese of New York:

"A Petition for a declaration of invalidity is to be made when it is claimed that at least one party to a marriage is bound by the Catholic form of marriage (i.e, is a baptized Catholic), that the marriage in question did not take place or was not validated in the presence of a Catholic priest/deacon, and that a dispensation from form was not obtained." (https://archny.org/wp-content/uploads/Petition-for-a-Declaration-of-Invalidity-due-to-Lack-of-From-Canon-1108.pdf)

Not a canon law expert but affairs are basically instantly invalidating and the nullity of form is a simple, objective out if you're concerned about litigating individual dispositions. This should be fairly open and shut.

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Jazz Click's avatar

When I converted (7 years ago today!) I had a few hang ups. But I had become convinced of the reality of apostolic succession and the Real Presence in the Eucharist. I feel like once you know those things you just can’t ever look back. Anyway, I asked God that if I moved forward with obedience he would either change the situations leading to my change my heart. If this is really the one true Chudxh and God is really who he says he is, then my request was a really small one. This was how I was able to become Catholic without having it all figured out. In my situation, God did change my heart. Who knows what he may do with your story if you ask him.

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Fr. Scott Bailey, C.Ss.R.'s avatar

THERE IS A LOT OF INCORRECT ADVICE GIVEN BY COMMENTERS!!!

You need to speak to your pastor or a canon lawyer, not the internet and not the person who sits next to you in class or the pew on Sunday.

You indicated in a comment your first wife is a baptized Catholic though presumably not practicing. Nevertheless she is still bound by canonical form. Because canonical form was not observed your marriage to her is invalid unless a dispensation was obtained which you would necessarily know about. You and she together would have had to speak to a Catholic priest to obtain it. It cannot be done in secret. No annulment is necessary.

As to your second marriage it seems as though it too was invalid, but without details it is impossible to say. Speak to your pastor. He should have handled this long before you got to this point in the OCIA. Not the instructor, not another Catholic, your pastor.

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