@Eric Anderson @Stuart Weiss @Donald Paul Maddox @J. A. Siemer @Fr. Chris Pietraszko @T. Martin @J. Terry Check out this beautiful reflection by @Ray Alex Williams! 🙂
I actually found an UnHerd article today claiming the very opposite of this piece: that religious (specifically Catholic) conversion from detrans and "ex-gay" types is a form of extremism. Honestly, I couldn't even finish reading the piece because of how tone-deaf it was. The author--like so many other critics of conversion--miss the point entirely.
I don't think such critics really appreciate or even understand how much the LGBT world is obsessed with religion & spirituality. Of course, every human is made to worship God and so will rationalize His existence in some way and/or replace Him with something else entirely; but many (idk what percentage) of those who become LGBT-identified seem to be strongly predisposed to a sort of spiritual curiosity.
We can see it in the obvious persistent mockery of Christianity, whilst simultaneously using it as a symbol of comfort and peace; or even the false promises of transgenderism. For example, the idea of "transcending sex" is an inversion of Christ stating "in Me there is no male or female." There are plenty of other examples, but this is one major one that comes to mind.
That being said, is it REALLY that shocking when LGBT-identified people realize they're following a corrupted mockery of God and decide to actually go to Him? It's no different than a customer who has been buying a bootleg product for years only to realize it's a fake and deciding to buy the real thing.
I'm an atheist, but I don't have a disdain for theists in general, or for Christians in particular. I'm not someone who would write mocking comments. I've had friends who are believers.
But I do have a question for you. You're a philosopher, and you've talked about finding philosophical arguments convincing. You have also written about having been an atheist and having conversion experiences. I'm curious how these fit together. You clearly weren't convinced by arguments before, and now you are. Does this intellectual shift coincide with having conversion experiences? I don't ask the question out of suspicion. I'm curious about the role motivation may play in the intellectual position. (Dropping a Hume quote: "Reason is and ought to be the slave of the passions.") Do you think you would have become convinced by the intellectual arguments had you not had conversion experience? (Maybe that misconstrues the timing.) Why did you go unpersuaded for years by intellectual arguments but find them persuasive now?
Full disclosure, I don't find the intellectual arguments for theism persuasive. I also don't have any personal motivation to care about it, haven't had personal religious experiences, and don't see the Christian framework as compelling. So I completely lack the motivational element.
It's a good question. The first step on my journey away from atheism and metaphysical naturalism was actually reading people like Bernard Kastrup and his philosophical arguments against physicalism and the primacy of consciousness in an idealistic metaphysics. And once I accepted that, it's quite easy to get into Neoplatonic concepts of "The One," etc., or Vedantic conceptions of non-dual Absolute Reality. So that was key: I had to first believe in God and the primacy of consciousness in order to accept the possibility of miracles, and from there the possibility that Jesus rising from the dead was indeed metaphysically possible.
This came as a kind of epiphany, although at the time I framed it moreso in terms of theosophical or New Age spirituality and not Christian orthodoxy.
But once I started learning about Christian apologetics, I realized the arguments for God made by the likes of Aquinas, etc., are exactly in line with that more idealist conception because they stem from similar arguments e.g. the argument from contingency is very convincing to me.
Also, learning about the historical arguments in favor of Christ's resurrection (empty tomb, the rapid growth of Christianity, etc) were more lines of converging evidence.
And then to get around to Catholicism, I had to have my moral crisis of conscience in regards to sexual ethics.
However, crucially, in all these conversion experiences or "epiphanies," I believe it was the Grace of God that first called me to him and made it possible for me to believe. Indeed, that is what the Catholic Church teaches: God must first call us to him for it to be possible to have faith.
From Grok:
Grace as a Prerequisite for Faith:
CCC 153 states: "When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come 'from flesh and blood,' but from 'my Father who is in heaven.' Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. 'Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God.'"
This passage makes it clear that grace precedes faith. It is God’s initiative—through the Holy Spirit—that prepares and moves a person to accept divine revelation and believe.
Grace and Human Cooperation:
CCC 1996 explains: "Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life."
While grace is the first mover, human beings are called to cooperate with it. Faith, therefore, is a human act (CCC 154), but one made possible only by God’s prior gift of grace.
Faith as a Response Enabled by Grace:
CCC 162 further ties grace and faith together: "Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift... To live, grow, and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; it must be 'working through charity,' abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church."
Here, the CCC underscores that faith originates as a gift from God (via grace) and requires ongoing grace to be sustained.
CCC 153 states: "When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come 'from flesh and blood,' but from 'my Father who is in heaven.' Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. 'Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God.'"
This passage makes it clear that grace precedes faith. It is God’s initiative—through the Holy Spirit—that prepares and moves a person to accept divine revelation and believe.
Grace and Human Cooperation:
CCC 1996 explains: "Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life."
While grace is the first mover, human beings are called to cooperate with it. Faith, therefore, is a human act (CCC 154), but one made possible only by God’s prior gift of grace.
Faith as a Response Enabled by Grace:
CCC 162 further ties grace and faith together: "Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift... To live, grow, and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; it must be 'working through charity,' abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church."
Here, the CCC underscores that faith originates as a gift from God (via grace) and requires ongoing grace to be sustained.
Ray don’t let them get you down. I converted from a lifetime of atheism and nihilism in the wake of medical complications and substance recovery. Anyone who knew me prior thought I was completely different. I went from Schopenhauer to the Gospels. Christ was the only thing that helped with the pain that my medical issues were causing. Thankfully that has passed, but it made me into a better person. Into the person I needed to be, not the person I wanted to be.
In any event, whether you pick him as your Confirmation saint or not, I highly recommend having a copy of one or both of those pieces of sacred art you show in this post in your home.
The Conversion on the Way to Damascus by Caravaggio is my favorite painting in the world and I have a framed copy of it in my dining room.
I'm going to abstain from ordering any takeout/doordash/restaurants and eat all my meals at home! A bigger, more serious challenge, however, is to abstain completely from masturbation.
Reading Jesus of Nazareth Parts II and III by Joseph Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI, reading a book of Lent reflections by Word on Fire, trying to make it to at least one Mass each week that isn’t on a Sunday or Holy Day of Obligation, and fasting from most news.
And hey, I love C.S. Lewis and he was an Anglican and I like the Anglican writer @Spencer Klavan quite a bit too. I don’t agree with Lewis or Klavan on everything (I disagree with Klavan on same-sex marriage and homosexuality, for instance), but I like and respect both of them a great deal.
Ray, I think Saint Paul the Apostle would be a great saint for you to have a devotion to. Another parallel you have with his story: he spoke of a “thorn in the flesh” that he struggled with, which reminds me of your struggles with AGP.
I would give him serious consideration to be your Confirmation patron saint as you discern which saint to choose, but ultimately I would choose whichever saint Jesus wishes you to choose after you pray about it, maybe pray about it before the Blessed Sacrament?
@Eric Anderson @Stuart Weiss @Donald Paul Maddox @J. A. Siemer @Fr. Chris Pietraszko @T. Martin @J. Terry Check out this beautiful reflection by @Ray Alex Williams! 🙂
I actually found an UnHerd article today claiming the very opposite of this piece: that religious (specifically Catholic) conversion from detrans and "ex-gay" types is a form of extremism. Honestly, I couldn't even finish reading the piece because of how tone-deaf it was. The author--like so many other critics of conversion--miss the point entirely.
I don't think such critics really appreciate or even understand how much the LGBT world is obsessed with religion & spirituality. Of course, every human is made to worship God and so will rationalize His existence in some way and/or replace Him with something else entirely; but many (idk what percentage) of those who become LGBT-identified seem to be strongly predisposed to a sort of spiritual curiosity.
We can see it in the obvious persistent mockery of Christianity, whilst simultaneously using it as a symbol of comfort and peace; or even the false promises of transgenderism. For example, the idea of "transcending sex" is an inversion of Christ stating "in Me there is no male or female." There are plenty of other examples, but this is one major one that comes to mind.
That being said, is it REALLY that shocking when LGBT-identified people realize they're following a corrupted mockery of God and decide to actually go to Him? It's no different than a customer who has been buying a bootleg product for years only to realize it's a fake and deciding to buy the real thing.
Very fascinating inferences and analysis! Ray, if you get a chance, I’d love to see you tackle the insights that J.S. Kasimir raises here.
I'm an atheist, but I don't have a disdain for theists in general, or for Christians in particular. I'm not someone who would write mocking comments. I've had friends who are believers.
But I do have a question for you. You're a philosopher, and you've talked about finding philosophical arguments convincing. You have also written about having been an atheist and having conversion experiences. I'm curious how these fit together. You clearly weren't convinced by arguments before, and now you are. Does this intellectual shift coincide with having conversion experiences? I don't ask the question out of suspicion. I'm curious about the role motivation may play in the intellectual position. (Dropping a Hume quote: "Reason is and ought to be the slave of the passions.") Do you think you would have become convinced by the intellectual arguments had you not had conversion experience? (Maybe that misconstrues the timing.) Why did you go unpersuaded for years by intellectual arguments but find them persuasive now?
Full disclosure, I don't find the intellectual arguments for theism persuasive. I also don't have any personal motivation to care about it, haven't had personal religious experiences, and don't see the Christian framework as compelling. So I completely lack the motivational element.
It's a good question. The first step on my journey away from atheism and metaphysical naturalism was actually reading people like Bernard Kastrup and his philosophical arguments against physicalism and the primacy of consciousness in an idealistic metaphysics. And once I accepted that, it's quite easy to get into Neoplatonic concepts of "The One," etc., or Vedantic conceptions of non-dual Absolute Reality. So that was key: I had to first believe in God and the primacy of consciousness in order to accept the possibility of miracles, and from there the possibility that Jesus rising from the dead was indeed metaphysically possible.
This came as a kind of epiphany, although at the time I framed it moreso in terms of theosophical or New Age spirituality and not Christian orthodoxy.
But once I started learning about Christian apologetics, I realized the arguments for God made by the likes of Aquinas, etc., are exactly in line with that more idealist conception because they stem from similar arguments e.g. the argument from contingency is very convincing to me.
Also, learning about the historical arguments in favor of Christ's resurrection (empty tomb, the rapid growth of Christianity, etc) were more lines of converging evidence.
And then to get around to Catholicism, I had to have my moral crisis of conscience in regards to sexual ethics.
However, crucially, in all these conversion experiences or "epiphanies," I believe it was the Grace of God that first called me to him and made it possible for me to believe. Indeed, that is what the Catholic Church teaches: God must first call us to him for it to be possible to have faith.
From Grok:
Grace as a Prerequisite for Faith:
CCC 153 states: "When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come 'from flesh and blood,' but from 'my Father who is in heaven.' Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. 'Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God.'"
This passage makes it clear that grace precedes faith. It is God’s initiative—through the Holy Spirit—that prepares and moves a person to accept divine revelation and believe.
Grace and Human Cooperation:
CCC 1996 explains: "Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life."
While grace is the first mover, human beings are called to cooperate with it. Faith, therefore, is a human act (CCC 154), but one made possible only by God’s prior gift of grace.
Faith as a Response Enabled by Grace:
CCC 162 further ties grace and faith together: "Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift... To live, grow, and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; it must be 'working through charity,' abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church."
Here, the CCC underscores that faith originates as a gift from God (via grace) and requires ongoing grace to be sustained.
CCC 153 states: "When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come 'from flesh and blood,' but from 'my Father who is in heaven.' Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. 'Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God.'"
This passage makes it clear that grace precedes faith. It is God’s initiative—through the Holy Spirit—that prepares and moves a person to accept divine revelation and believe.
Grace and Human Cooperation:
CCC 1996 explains: "Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life."
While grace is the first mover, human beings are called to cooperate with it. Faith, therefore, is a human act (CCC 154), but one made possible only by God’s prior gift of grace.
Faith as a Response Enabled by Grace:
CCC 162 further ties grace and faith together: "Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift... To live, grow, and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; it must be 'working through charity,' abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church."
Here, the CCC underscores that faith originates as a gift from God (via grace) and requires ongoing grace to be sustained.
Thanks. So it appears that intellectual development and personal experience occurred together over an extended process.
I've never heard the idea that faith comes God. Raises some questions about agency and responsibility. Interesting.
Ray don’t let them get you down. I converted from a lifetime of atheism and nihilism in the wake of medical complications and substance recovery. Anyone who knew me prior thought I was completely different. I went from Schopenhauer to the Gospels. Christ was the only thing that helped with the pain that my medical issues were causing. Thankfully that has passed, but it made me into a better person. Into the person I needed to be, not the person I wanted to be.
Thank you for sharing and for your encouragement 🙏God Bless ❤️
God Bless to you to friend.🙏
Hey it’s not JUST Roman Catholics who accept to metaphysical truth of your experience btw…
In any event, whether you pick him as your Confirmation saint or not, I highly recommend having a copy of one or both of those pieces of sacred art you show in this post in your home.
The Conversion on the Way to Damascus by Caravaggio is my favorite painting in the world and I have a framed copy of it in my dining room.
There’s always Saint James… 😉. I kid I kid I joke I joke. I would never try to talk a Roman Catholic into changiing.
So what are y’all doing for Lent? I’m giving up sodas.
I'm going to abstain from ordering any takeout/doordash/restaurants and eat all my meals at home! A bigger, more serious challenge, however, is to abstain completely from masturbation.
Reading Jesus of Nazareth Parts II and III by Joseph Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI, reading a book of Lent reflections by Word on Fire, trying to make it to at least one Mass each week that isn’t on a Sunday or Holy Day of Obligation, and fasting from most news.
And hey, I love C.S. Lewis and he was an Anglican and I like the Anglican writer @Spencer Klavan quite a bit too. I don’t agree with Lewis or Klavan on everything (I disagree with Klavan on same-sex marriage and homosexuality, for instance), but I like and respect both of them a great deal.
Ray, I think Saint Paul the Apostle would be a great saint for you to have a devotion to. Another parallel you have with his story: he spoke of a “thorn in the flesh” that he struggled with, which reminds me of your struggles with AGP.
I would give him serious consideration to be your Confirmation patron saint as you discern which saint to choose, but ultimately I would choose whichever saint Jesus wishes you to choose after you pray about it, maybe pray about it before the Blessed Sacrament?