Many commentators in this space, including Michael Bailey, seem to suffer from a lack of epistemic humility as far as I can tell. The Self is complex and interacts with culture via various reinforcement loops. Trans is a culture bound syndrome that changes over time and now includes the internet. AGP was a narrative of its time just like transexualism that preceded it. People latch on to available narratives.
To speculate I think rather than a sexuality it's just a modal mistake about identity coupled with obsessiveness and addictive reinforcement. There may be underlying propensities here but they aren't necessarily linked to sexuality, gender. Fetish, paraphilia is a good descriptor for the reinforcement layer.
Talking about autism and not prioritising the autism is dumb, everything is downstream of it.
I don’t necessarily disagree with your analysis but what is the *nature* of the obsessiveness? It is often an obsessiveness of a sexual kind. Addictive reinforcement of a sexual kind. However, I think the addictive reinforcement model fails to account fully for the analloerotic AGP cohort unless we’re just using reinforcement abstractly to discuss how anyone learns and changes behavior over time.
Well sexuality is a very primary thing and very reinforcing via the pleasure centre. I'm not up with analoerotic AGP cohort. Is there really such specific typologies among the variety and ubiquity of human weirdness? Some heterosexuals have an anal fixation and many people go through stages in adolescence that they grow out of. Many, many men have a porn addiction and some problematic use because of extreme content. But this isn't sexuality.
My sense is the critical issue is the identity formation/stability. Most people suffer to some degree through adolescence with social anxiety, fitting in, sexuality. With trans my sense is people make a modal confusion with what identity is, most people come to some stable sense of themselves and live through their identities by just being and doing. But trans reifies identity and people try to live from their identities. People with autism are prone because they simply have difficulty with identity formation and social relations full stop.
Additionally things have shifted with the internet which is cognitively transforming and disembodied by nature.
The problem is that the autistic component - or something else? - makes it difficult for many AGP men to see, understand and accept the often very detrimental effect of their behaviour on others, especially women and children. What can be done about this?
Excellent excellent excellent. I say the same of your recent conversation with @themarychu. Regarding misogyny, I think, just like how Gc’s can be blind about male sexuality, you are blind to the misogyny of crossdressing. I have Phil Illy’s book and read a bit of it and I agree that most AGPs aren’t any risk to women and that studying this and figuring it out is going to help people. While I do not have a right not to be offended, I am offended by men who dress in a farcical parody of womanhood (picture above) and I think it is misogyny. If the man is just playing and it’s done in fun and in private, or as part of a show, I think it’s fine. In public and combined with demanding I agree he’s a woman it IS misogynistic because he’s making a farce out of womanhood and then demanding a woman validate what he’s done. It’s just incredibly demeaning to women. And I do not think it should be illegal but I do think he should be the one ashamed of himself, not the women who say they are offended.
is it inherently misogynistic if I socially present entirely feminine, dress and all, still acknowledging my biological sex as a man, without protruding in women’s spaces?
Not for me, I would be open to gender non-conforming dress and behavior.
There is another issue around authenticity and hiddenness that can occur with meeting someone existentially which we all occupy a position on when presenting to others and there do exist cultural norms- even renegades do not just wear any old thing.
Eg, sometimes people are socially gauche with their presentation, ie an overly done appearance might be off-putting in certain circumstances.
Yes! Truth comes first. Moralizing should come only after we know what is true.
Is before Ought.
Well done and thank you, Ray.
Once again, you deliver clarity.
Many commentators in this space, including Michael Bailey, seem to suffer from a lack of epistemic humility as far as I can tell. The Self is complex and interacts with culture via various reinforcement loops. Trans is a culture bound syndrome that changes over time and now includes the internet. AGP was a narrative of its time just like transexualism that preceded it. People latch on to available narratives.
To speculate I think rather than a sexuality it's just a modal mistake about identity coupled with obsessiveness and addictive reinforcement. There may be underlying propensities here but they aren't necessarily linked to sexuality, gender. Fetish, paraphilia is a good descriptor for the reinforcement layer.
Talking about autism and not prioritising the autism is dumb, everything is downstream of it.
I don’t necessarily disagree with your analysis but what is the *nature* of the obsessiveness? It is often an obsessiveness of a sexual kind. Addictive reinforcement of a sexual kind. However, I think the addictive reinforcement model fails to account fully for the analloerotic AGP cohort unless we’re just using reinforcement abstractly to discuss how anyone learns and changes behavior over time.
Well sexuality is a very primary thing and very reinforcing via the pleasure centre. I'm not up with analoerotic AGP cohort. Is there really such specific typologies among the variety and ubiquity of human weirdness? Some heterosexuals have an anal fixation and many people go through stages in adolescence that they grow out of. Many, many men have a porn addiction and some problematic use because of extreme content. But this isn't sexuality.
My sense is the critical issue is the identity formation/stability. Most people suffer to some degree through adolescence with social anxiety, fitting in, sexuality. With trans my sense is people make a modal confusion with what identity is, most people come to some stable sense of themselves and live through their identities by just being and doing. But trans reifies identity and people try to live from their identities. People with autism are prone because they simply have difficulty with identity formation and social relations full stop.
Additionally things have shifted with the internet which is cognitively transforming and disembodied by nature.
The problem is that the autistic component - or something else? - makes it difficult for many AGP men to see, understand and accept the often very detrimental effect of their behaviour on others, especially women and children. What can be done about this?
if i have agp, do i have autism?, i have troubles interacting with people anyway
You're failing the false dichotomy test, here. There are more possible accounts than Phil's and the Ultras'.
Such as?
Let's do this on twitter.
Excellent excellent excellent. I say the same of your recent conversation with @themarychu. Regarding misogyny, I think, just like how Gc’s can be blind about male sexuality, you are blind to the misogyny of crossdressing. I have Phil Illy’s book and read a bit of it and I agree that most AGPs aren’t any risk to women and that studying this and figuring it out is going to help people. While I do not have a right not to be offended, I am offended by men who dress in a farcical parody of womanhood (picture above) and I think it is misogyny. If the man is just playing and it’s done in fun and in private, or as part of a show, I think it’s fine. In public and combined with demanding I agree he’s a woman it IS misogynistic because he’s making a farce out of womanhood and then demanding a woman validate what he’s done. It’s just incredibly demeaning to women. And I do not think it should be illegal but I do think he should be the one ashamed of himself, not the women who say they are offended.
There is nothing inherently misogynistic in the idea that, I as a man, apply eyeliner before leaving to work because I like the way it looks.
No, but it doesn't make you a woman or entitle you to access female spaces.
is it inherently misogynistic if I socially present entirely feminine, dress and all, still acknowledging my biological sex as a man, without protruding in women’s spaces?
Not for me, I would be open to gender non-conforming dress and behavior.
There is another issue around authenticity and hiddenness that can occur with meeting someone existentially which we all occupy a position on when presenting to others and there do exist cultural norms- even renegades do not just wear any old thing.
Eg, sometimes people are socially gauche with their presentation, ie an overly done appearance might be off-putting in certain circumstances.