Very good points about how this isn’t murder and how insane it is to think so. They always want to call it a “genocide” when we talk about safeguards for children transitioning as they believe they’ll commit suicide if not given treatment.
Looking at the evidence and Nex’s own statement, I don’t believe she was bullied for being non-binary at all. The girls didn’t know her, nor had she interacted with them prior to this. She just looked like a silly girl in the girls bathroom to those girls. Ntm, she had a friend with her who was apparently also “trans”, but they didn’t attack her friend as well.
I think they should’ve done some investigating into her social media because, if she did commit suicide, then imo, she did it because she was convinced of something online from the “trans” community. Like you said, suicide is contagious.
Ntm, the cult nature of the “community” lends itself to members committing suicide due to manipulation, fear mongering, and making them feel suicide is a form of “salvation”.
My gut response to hearing about Dagny's death, besides flashing back to locker-room drama in my youth and in Stephen King's Carrie, was to wonder to what extent this might be a #NEXBENEDICTTR*NSOP situation, given the atmosphere of #TransFloyd, #DragFloyd, etc, created by the activists, and observed and named by James Lindsay.
Then I felt bad about this, absorbing they "They beat her up!" narrative, being influenced by it, and feeling sorry for the unnecessary death of a charming young person.
Then the news about Dagny NOT dying from physical trauma hit,
and then the news about her death being due to her swallowing pills.
I was like: (!!!)
And I wondered if my gut instinct might not have been right.
SO, right now, my analysis goes like this:
They wanted their #TransFloyd;
they needed their #TransFloyd;
they got their #TransFloyd,
in that the Social Justice Narrative collapsed ito a drug-overdose narrative . . .
and yet it still retains its original power to compel emotional response,
even enhanced by attempts to debunk it with stupid facts.
CUI BONO?
Google nex benedict.
How many stories are about "Boy, those liberal juices are flowing good now!"
How many are about "What happened to the chill, non-suicidal kid in the hospital bed, recovering well from a minor dust-up? What happened, the night before she took the pills? How did she get into the frame of mind where that sounded like a good idea? Who was talking to her? To whom was she listening? How politically-connected was she, with OK Trans and Big Trans?
Whose interests are advanced by the "They bullied her to death!" narrative?
At this point, my instincts are, that soon the Big Trans/OK Trans/Dagny-Suicide links will be documented, and two competing interpretive systems will demand our attention.
"Look at how evil Big Trans is, they made a kid kill herself to move their ball down the field!
This is #TransFloyd, #GeorgeFloyd all over again!"
and
"But look at how evil the anti-transers are, in that THEY FORCED US to force Dagny to commit suicide, in order to draw attention to all the (largely self-created) anti-trans abuse!
This is #TransFloyd, #GeorgeFloyd all over again!"
---
On another note, I listened to the recent Phil/Ray pod-cast with great interest.
AGP owned & operated content is a huge step forward for your community, and I want to see and recognize and acknowledge and congratulate you two for that. (Even if your use of the term "self-aware AGP" is a bit of a self-congratulatory stretcher! ;) )
I did a joint BL/GL pod-cast a few years go, with me as the out, celibate, BL, and Todd Nickerson as the out, celibate, GL. I had observed the bugs-under-a-rock dynamic developing at www.boychat.org, and wanted a clearer, cleaner, opener discourse about BL/GL to lay before the public.
Naturally, Todd and I are going to have our blind-spots, and just doing the thing at all, and posting it, was terrifying. But I really wanted to prioritize VISIBILITY, after suffering under the general invisibility imposed on BL/GL in society, and the special invisibility imposed on celibate BL's at BoyChat.
But I draw your attention to it now, because of the hot-house "boychat" or "panty-chat" dynamic I see going on between you and Phil, as, I guess, two AGP-BROS having a good old panty-chat together. I deliberately chose to NOT do my first Virtue-Cast with a fellow BL, because I wanted to get away from the self-validation and self-authorizing society, that a place like BoyChat necessarily becomes. BIRDS OF A FEATHER, etc. I didn't want that PERFECT ALIGNMENT OF BLIND-SPOTS, that I knew I would get, in chatting with a fellow BL.
I figured Todd could keep me honest, as a man who isn't tempted by boys, and I could keep him honest, as a man who isn't tempted by girls. And it was good fun to recite Ovid's Pygmalion together, washing our clean linen in public.
Bluntly, if you watch Todd and I talking together, you will see your own cringe Ray/Phil interview reflected as in a mirror, and I think you will learn a lot from the experience, however painful. ;)
I mean, if Todd and I decided to bill ourselves as "Self-Aware Pedophiles," would you feel any less cringe, watching us chat about, and revel in, our Weirdness?
Are we successful, in your view, in creating acceptable public personae for ourselves by tacking language onto ourselves like "celibate BL/GL" and "Virtue-Cast"-? Bear in mind that you and Phil look as ridiculous to me - as I don't share the desire to dress as a woman -- as Todd and I must seem to you, insofar as you don't share our sexual make-up. As I say, a painful experience, but a very profitable one, seeing yourselves in a mirror!
If I covet the term "self-aware" for my own public BL-identity gamesmanship, under the rubric of my Performance Art character DIDASKALOS, (but don't dare crown myself with it!) I do so on the basis of my work in the following four areas:
Childlike Achilles,
HEROIC POETRY,
OPUS GENERIS,
and Plato's Phaedros.
---
I first saw the idea that pedophilia is a form of TRANS in the book Childlike Achilles.
Pedophilia, accordig to the theorists cited by the author, is not so much the challenge of dis-identifying with the mother, as trans is, but the challenge of dis-identifying with the beautiful, pluri-potential, golden boy reflected back in the mother's eye; the mother's intense love for the golden boy becoming, at puberty, for the not-so-self-aware teenage boy, HIS intense love for the beautiful golden boy, as EXTERNAL image. He does't realize that his pattern of sexual response has entirely been programmed in, and is an unreflective download of his mother's sexual response pattern.
Gender, then, is a matter of deliberately and painfully UNINSTALLING the mother's emotion-based dyadic programming, and installing the father-programming, which is always about dialing down the emotions, and dialing up the practical skills. As we will see in Plato, the real man-boy relationship is always about a third thing, not the obsession with each other's bodies, as in the mother-son dyad.
This is a very tricky point, as chasing boys FEELS like escaping mother and her constricting female world. But in reality, the BL impulse is nothing more than an impulse to RE-ESTABLISH the mother-son dyad, except this time with me as the powerful mother . . . instead of me as the powerless son.
Having left behind the emotional liquidity of mother's world, and operating day-to-day in the grinding world of masculinity, there is natural tendency to look around for a mechanism, a small door in the wall, a Golden Key, in order to be able to GET BACK THERE at will. The AGP guys do it with mommy's clothes. My Boy-Lover peers and I do it by cuddling mommy's wonderful boy. (!) But we're both trying to get back to the same retrogressive "Great Mother" place. I'm amused by how similar we are, but also how different. I could never get into that Norman Bates-looking stuff you two are into, and I'm sure you feel the same way about BL/GL. But here we are.
---
In glorious overcompensation for my own cowardly and unmanly boyhood, I have made a career of reciting Heroic Poetry (Homer, Vergil, Beowulf, Sir Gawain, Brennu Njals Saga, etc, both in the original language and in Japanese, in preparation for touring Japan.
---
OPUS GENERIS is a suite of five poems, running from Cybele and Attis to Daphne & Apollo, and, as the meaty middle of the sandwich, too-much male role-modeling represented by Pindar Olympian Ode #1 (Zeus/Ganymede, Poseidon/Pelops) and too-little male role-modeling represented by Telemachos failing to move the Ithaca townspeople by his speech, in the absence of Odysseus,
Odysseus book II.
OPUS GENERIS text, Greek, Latin, English, Japanese, w/ illustrations
Essentially I've leveraged my own history of masculinity-fail and gender-trauma into classical poetry, in order to comment on the general atmosphere of gender-confusion in the 2020's; fermenting the material until all the personal emotion is fermented out, leaving an empty, but well-structured and spiritually-charged structure in which other people can play around securely, feel THEIR feels, and get a sense of where they stand in the larger picture of libido-flows (and libido-flow changes!) that make up gendering for male humans.
It is notable that I have failed to obtain a hearing for OPUS GENERIS, despite massive publicity efforts over the last 9 years, despite finding it very easy to book shows for Homer & Vergil, despite the country being in an absolute STATE of gender-chaos since 2015. 2015 is the year I call Anno Caitlynnae Nostrae, dating the current era from THE YEAR OF OUR CAITLYNN.
The OPUS GENERIS project has been nine years of looking at a BABY ELEPHANT that has fallen down into a hole, and trying to think how to get him out. Ladder? Helicopter? Filling the hole with palm-trunks? Elephant bodies are set up to walk on broad, flat paths, and that's what you have't got, at the bottom of a hole. ;( All I can do is draw pictures of the elephant IN THE BOTTOM OF THE HOLE, (Cybele and Attis) and various stages of escape, until the elephant, under its own steam, figures out how to MAKE ITS OWNWAY OUT, and can walk around with the other elephants -- and that would be Daphne & Apollo. That's the baby elephant, OUT OF THE HOLE, walking around, and living his normal elephant life, see?
---
Reciting/editing/recording Plato's Phaedros (in Greek, Latin, English, and Japanese) affords me the opportunity to address Boy-Love from all sides, from the venal creeps buying and discarding boy-whores, to the purplest and most idealistic pageantry of the celibate boy-lovers on parade with their boys, the grape-loving men & grape-loving boys marching in the Dionysus float, etc. Boy-Love -- the GOOD Boy-Love-- is represented as a PUBLIC parade, because the men & boys in celibate ("Platonic") boy-lover relationships aren't doing anything shameful; only what is good for the community, and can be shared with an approving public.
But of course, what people most want to see is the melodramatic confrontation between paederastic lust and paederastic restraint -- YOU WON'T SCREW THE BOY! I WILL SCREW THE BOY! etc. So the Phaedros is a very fun piece to work on and perform. I get to give voice to my worst impulses . . . and see them self-correct in the dialectic ping-pong between Socrates and Phaidros.
You saw something like this for AGP's in the old "Imperial Court System," where the cross-dressers would get together to hold drag-balls, raise money for charity, and so focus on pro-social, public activity, rather than weird private stuff. Likewise, the old YMCA was very much an effort to get all the town BL's together to cough up the dough for a gym/swimmig pool, etc, for the town's boys.
Anyways, that's a lot.
I'd love to do an interview with you, bearing in mind that's it's easy for my rigid theoretical formulations to overwhelm and cloud your lived experience as an AGP, and it's easy for your AGP emotionality to overwhelm and cloud my scanty stock of emotional self-control, hard-won but fragile masculine identity, etc. ("But haven't you EVER?? With an angora sweater???!?!?! OH C'MON!")
I invented the SHUPE SCALE as a way of trying to quantify and calibrate (in, say, the course of an interview) the extent to which a Great Mother atmosphere of "Begriffenheit" (possession) has been created, at the expense of the normal masculine identity. I saw Shupe come on Boyce of Reason, and saw him very quickly take it to a TEN on SOME sort of scale . . . but I didn't know what. So I invented the SHUPE-SCALE to talk about that. If you read TOM O'CARROLL'S book on Michael Jackson, Dangerous Liaisons, for instance, you can see him citing James Barrie ("Peter Pan") taking it to a HARD TEN in over-mothering a boy.
So you would expect the interview to start with us talking as two regular masculine guys, (Shupe = 1) and then dropping little pink and blue handkerchiefs, to take the conversation to a level where we could indulge our interests. On the one hand, the constant checking in on the Shupe-Scale ("Where are you right now?") would be very interesting; on the other, because you'd be dropping pink (AGP) silk handkerchiefs, and I'd be dropping blue denim handkerchiefs (of BL) IT WOULDN'T WORK, and that would lead to lots of hilarious contre-temps, and a fun, memorable interview.
Very good points about how this isn’t murder and how insane it is to think so. They always want to call it a “genocide” when we talk about safeguards for children transitioning as they believe they’ll commit suicide if not given treatment.
Looking at the evidence and Nex’s own statement, I don’t believe she was bullied for being non-binary at all. The girls didn’t know her, nor had she interacted with them prior to this. She just looked like a silly girl in the girls bathroom to those girls. Ntm, she had a friend with her who was apparently also “trans”, but they didn’t attack her friend as well.
I think they should’ve done some investigating into her social media because, if she did commit suicide, then imo, she did it because she was convinced of something online from the “trans” community. Like you said, suicide is contagious.
Ntm, the cult nature of the “community” lends itself to members committing suicide due to manipulation, fear mongering, and making them feel suicide is a form of “salvation”.
Hi Ray,
My gut response to hearing about Dagny's death, besides flashing back to locker-room drama in my youth and in Stephen King's Carrie, was to wonder to what extent this might be a #NEXBENEDICTTR*NSOP situation, given the atmosphere of #TransFloyd, #DragFloyd, etc, created by the activists, and observed and named by James Lindsay.
Then I felt bad about this, absorbing they "They beat her up!" narrative, being influenced by it, and feeling sorry for the unnecessary death of a charming young person.
Then the news about Dagny NOT dying from physical trauma hit,
and then the news about her death being due to her swallowing pills.
I was like: (!!!)
And I wondered if my gut instinct might not have been right.
SO, right now, my analysis goes like this:
They wanted their #TransFloyd;
they needed their #TransFloyd;
they got their #TransFloyd,
in that the Social Justice Narrative collapsed ito a drug-overdose narrative . . .
and yet it still retains its original power to compel emotional response,
even enhanced by attempts to debunk it with stupid facts.
CUI BONO?
Google nex benedict.
How many stories are about "Boy, those liberal juices are flowing good now!"
How many are about "What happened to the chill, non-suicidal kid in the hospital bed, recovering well from a minor dust-up? What happened, the night before she took the pills? How did she get into the frame of mind where that sounded like a good idea? Who was talking to her? To whom was she listening? How politically-connected was she, with OK Trans and Big Trans?
Whose interests are advanced by the "They bullied her to death!" narrative?
At this point, my instincts are, that soon the Big Trans/OK Trans/Dagny-Suicide links will be documented, and two competing interpretive systems will demand our attention.
"Look at how evil Big Trans is, they made a kid kill herself to move their ball down the field!
This is #TransFloyd, #GeorgeFloyd all over again!"
and
"But look at how evil the anti-transers are, in that THEY FORCED US to force Dagny to commit suicide, in order to draw attention to all the (largely self-created) anti-trans abuse!
This is #TransFloyd, #GeorgeFloyd all over again!"
---
On another note, I listened to the recent Phil/Ray pod-cast with great interest.
AGP owned & operated content is a huge step forward for your community, and I want to see and recognize and acknowledge and congratulate you two for that. (Even if your use of the term "self-aware AGP" is a bit of a self-congratulatory stretcher! ;) )
I did a joint BL/GL pod-cast a few years go, with me as the out, celibate, BL, and Todd Nickerson as the out, celibate, GL. I had observed the bugs-under-a-rock dynamic developing at www.boychat.org, and wanted a clearer, cleaner, opener discourse about BL/GL to lay before the public.
Naturally, Todd and I are going to have our blind-spots, and just doing the thing at all, and posting it, was terrifying. But I really wanted to prioritize VISIBILITY, after suffering under the general invisibility imposed on BL/GL in society, and the special invisibility imposed on celibate BL's at BoyChat.
But I draw your attention to it now, because of the hot-house "boychat" or "panty-chat" dynamic I see going on between you and Phil, as, I guess, two AGP-BROS having a good old panty-chat together. I deliberately chose to NOT do my first Virtue-Cast with a fellow BL, because I wanted to get away from the self-validation and self-authorizing society, that a place like BoyChat necessarily becomes. BIRDS OF A FEATHER, etc. I didn't want that PERFECT ALIGNMENT OF BLIND-SPOTS, that I knew I would get, in chatting with a fellow BL.
I figured Todd could keep me honest, as a man who isn't tempted by boys, and I could keep him honest, as a man who isn't tempted by girls. And it was good fun to recite Ovid's Pygmalion together, washing our clean linen in public.
Bluntly, if you watch Todd and I talking together, you will see your own cringe Ray/Phil interview reflected as in a mirror, and I think you will learn a lot from the experience, however painful. ;)
I mean, if Todd and I decided to bill ourselves as "Self-Aware Pedophiles," would you feel any less cringe, watching us chat about, and revel in, our Weirdness?
Are we successful, in your view, in creating acceptable public personae for ourselves by tacking language onto ourselves like "celibate BL/GL" and "Virtue-Cast"-? Bear in mind that you and Phil look as ridiculous to me - as I don't share the desire to dress as a woman -- as Todd and I must seem to you, insofar as you don't share our sexual make-up. As I say, a painful experience, but a very profitable one, seeing yourselves in a mirror!
Virtue-Cast #1, featuring Todd Nickerson.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azH8dyw85EA
======
If I covet the term "self-aware" for my own public BL-identity gamesmanship, under the rubric of my Performance Art character DIDASKALOS, (but don't dare crown myself with it!) I do so on the basis of my work in the following four areas:
Childlike Achilles,
HEROIC POETRY,
OPUS GENERIS,
and Plato's Phaedros.
---
I first saw the idea that pedophilia is a form of TRANS in the book Childlike Achilles.
https://archive.org/details/childlikeachille0000macc
Pedophilia, accordig to the theorists cited by the author, is not so much the challenge of dis-identifying with the mother, as trans is, but the challenge of dis-identifying with the beautiful, pluri-potential, golden boy reflected back in the mother's eye; the mother's intense love for the golden boy becoming, at puberty, for the not-so-self-aware teenage boy, HIS intense love for the beautiful golden boy, as EXTERNAL image. He does't realize that his pattern of sexual response has entirely been programmed in, and is an unreflective download of his mother's sexual response pattern.
Gender, then, is a matter of deliberately and painfully UNINSTALLING the mother's emotion-based dyadic programming, and installing the father-programming, which is always about dialing down the emotions, and dialing up the practical skills. As we will see in Plato, the real man-boy relationship is always about a third thing, not the obsession with each other's bodies, as in the mother-son dyad.
This is a very tricky point, as chasing boys FEELS like escaping mother and her constricting female world. But in reality, the BL impulse is nothing more than an impulse to RE-ESTABLISH the mother-son dyad, except this time with me as the powerful mother . . . instead of me as the powerless son.
Having left behind the emotional liquidity of mother's world, and operating day-to-day in the grinding world of masculinity, there is natural tendency to look around for a mechanism, a small door in the wall, a Golden Key, in order to be able to GET BACK THERE at will. The AGP guys do it with mommy's clothes. My Boy-Lover peers and I do it by cuddling mommy's wonderful boy. (!) But we're both trying to get back to the same retrogressive "Great Mother" place. I'm amused by how similar we are, but also how different. I could never get into that Norman Bates-looking stuff you two are into, and I'm sure you feel the same way about BL/GL. But here we are.
---
In glorious overcompensation for my own cowardly and unmanly boyhood, I have made a career of reciting Heroic Poetry (Homer, Vergil, Beowulf, Sir Gawain, Brennu Njals Saga, etc, both in the original language and in Japanese, in preparation for touring Japan.
---
OPUS GENERIS is a suite of five poems, running from Cybele and Attis to Daphne & Apollo, and, as the meaty middle of the sandwich, too-much male role-modeling represented by Pindar Olympian Ode #1 (Zeus/Ganymede, Poseidon/Pelops) and too-little male role-modeling represented by Telemachos failing to move the Ithaca townspeople by his speech, in the absence of Odysseus,
Odysseus book II.
OPUS GENERIS text, Greek, Latin, English, Japanese, w/ illustrations
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kGFMJcWozA5TnYsIf_F-Lbi4jF9G9VnGdo3M8nwrfPc/edit?fbclid=IwAR2ZOI9ZeKjdeBGG8CjCc12xgA3WnfyjtkfIVGaGxvRtMM49ImAcs73NRYw
Essentially I've leveraged my own history of masculinity-fail and gender-trauma into classical poetry, in order to comment on the general atmosphere of gender-confusion in the 2020's; fermenting the material until all the personal emotion is fermented out, leaving an empty, but well-structured and spiritually-charged structure in which other people can play around securely, feel THEIR feels, and get a sense of where they stand in the larger picture of libido-flows (and libido-flow changes!) that make up gendering for male humans.
It is notable that I have failed to obtain a hearing for OPUS GENERIS, despite massive publicity efforts over the last 9 years, despite finding it very easy to book shows for Homer & Vergil, despite the country being in an absolute STATE of gender-chaos since 2015. 2015 is the year I call Anno Caitlynnae Nostrae, dating the current era from THE YEAR OF OUR CAITLYNN.
The OPUS GENERIS project has been nine years of looking at a BABY ELEPHANT that has fallen down into a hole, and trying to think how to get him out. Ladder? Helicopter? Filling the hole with palm-trunks? Elephant bodies are set up to walk on broad, flat paths, and that's what you have't got, at the bottom of a hole. ;( All I can do is draw pictures of the elephant IN THE BOTTOM OF THE HOLE, (Cybele and Attis) and various stages of escape, until the elephant, under its own steam, figures out how to MAKE ITS OWNWAY OUT, and can walk around with the other elephants -- and that would be Daphne & Apollo. That's the baby elephant, OUT OF THE HOLE, walking around, and living his normal elephant life, see?
---
Reciting/editing/recording Plato's Phaedros (in Greek, Latin, English, and Japanese) affords me the opportunity to address Boy-Love from all sides, from the venal creeps buying and discarding boy-whores, to the purplest and most idealistic pageantry of the celibate boy-lovers on parade with their boys, the grape-loving men & grape-loving boys marching in the Dionysus float, etc. Boy-Love -- the GOOD Boy-Love-- is represented as a PUBLIC parade, because the men & boys in celibate ("Platonic") boy-lover relationships aren't doing anything shameful; only what is good for the community, and can be shared with an approving public.
But of course, what people most want to see is the melodramatic confrontation between paederastic lust and paederastic restraint -- YOU WON'T SCREW THE BOY! I WILL SCREW THE BOY! etc. So the Phaedros is a very fun piece to work on and perform. I get to give voice to my worst impulses . . . and see them self-correct in the dialectic ping-pong between Socrates and Phaidros.
You saw something like this for AGP's in the old "Imperial Court System," where the cross-dressers would get together to hold drag-balls, raise money for charity, and so focus on pro-social, public activity, rather than weird private stuff. Likewise, the old YMCA was very much an effort to get all the town BL's together to cough up the dough for a gym/swimmig pool, etc, for the town's boys.
Anyways, that's a lot.
I'd love to do an interview with you, bearing in mind that's it's easy for my rigid theoretical formulations to overwhelm and cloud your lived experience as an AGP, and it's easy for your AGP emotionality to overwhelm and cloud my scanty stock of emotional self-control, hard-won but fragile masculine identity, etc. ("But haven't you EVER?? With an angora sweater???!?!?! OH C'MON!")
I invented the SHUPE SCALE as a way of trying to quantify and calibrate (in, say, the course of an interview) the extent to which a Great Mother atmosphere of "Begriffenheit" (possession) has been created, at the expense of the normal masculine identity. I saw Shupe come on Boyce of Reason, and saw him very quickly take it to a TEN on SOME sort of scale . . . but I didn't know what. So I invented the SHUPE-SCALE to talk about that. If you read TOM O'CARROLL'S book on Michael Jackson, Dangerous Liaisons, for instance, you can see him citing James Barrie ("Peter Pan") taking it to a HARD TEN in over-mothering a boy.
So you would expect the interview to start with us talking as two regular masculine guys, (Shupe = 1) and then dropping little pink and blue handkerchiefs, to take the conversation to a level where we could indulge our interests. On the one hand, the constant checking in on the Shupe-Scale ("Where are you right now?") would be very interesting; on the other, because you'd be dropping pink (AGP) silk handkerchiefs, and I'd be dropping blue denim handkerchiefs (of BL) IT WOULDN'T WORK, and that would lead to lots of hilarious contre-temps, and a fun, memorable interview.
mrminer071166@yahoo.com
--Mark Miner
FB:: SanDiegoHomerCon